No Crying In Baseball

Patti 0:17
Music, Hi and welcome to Episode 400 of no crying in baseball the I'll take a legacy episode. My name is Patty. I'm here with my friend potty about potty mouth. You don't look a day over 399

Pottymouth 0:29
you know that was when I was on sale last week. But now we're just like a clean 400 today. I think it's a very celebratory day for us to be doing episode 400 because, you know, we're starting the MLB season. So happy beginning of the season to everybody. It's the start of because it's the beginning of the season. It's the start of our new season, and it's our start of our ninth season. That's insane.

Patti 0:55
That is insane. How do we still get along? I can't. Well, I mean, there should have been some horrible breakdown at some point in the last nine seasons. What the heck

Pottymouth 1:04
that just, you know, shows that the quality of professionalism that's behind the hosting that goes on here at no crying in baseball, yeah, Holy COVID, civil discourse, right? That means we should do some sort of, like, big trip next year to celebrate 10, like we got to do some bo bo bonanza. Well, right, we'll start planning that. Also today is March 30. It will be April when you hear this, but it's still march for us, so we are still celebrating and in a big way, Women's History Month. Whoo, more on that. Woo, and

Patti 1:36
you'll, you'll hear more about in just a second. Yeah, no, for sure. So we celebrated opening day at nats Park on Thursday. We hope you all had a good time somewhere. On opening day, we saw a historic performance by a pitcher man as we were watching. We're like, Is this really happening? How many is that? How many is that? Mackenzie Gore had 13 Ks in six shutout innings, only one hit, no walks. He tied Bob Gibson from 1967 for that kind of record. It was incredible. Unfortunately, the NATs couldn't keep it going because, apparently there's no bullpen. But it was so it was so incredible to watch. It's like, look at him go. He's He's unstoppable.

Pottymouth 2:19
Yeah, it was still a fun game. I mean, it was chilly, but it was a beautiful day. We got to woo and we got free baseball because it went 10 innings. So it could have been worse. It didn't go our way in the 10th inning, sadly. But you know, then that's one today. So you never know, but you

Patti 2:37
know, being in the ballpark is always better than not being in the ballpark, as far as I'm concerned. So I was very happy, very happy to do that. So just a quick little roundup of the whole rest of MLB opening weekend. Here's what I've got to say. Tyler O'Neill can't stop hitting opening day dingers. Yeah, the Chicago White Sox are currently in first place alphabetically. Adley's back. My fantasy team has no third basement, none, zero, zippo potty mouths. Team is in the basement. And, you know, I typed up my notes A while ago, earlier today, and I said, I'm waiting for the talk about is the ball juice to start. And I swear to you, during the Orioles game, they said, it might be too early to say this, but we should keep an eye on that ball. Yeah, it's already happening.

Pottymouth 3:19
Yeah, and, I was going to before we started recording, but didn't, because I was catching the very, very sad end of the Red Sox Rangers game where the Red Sox fucking blew it again. But, you know, there's always next time, but the Yankees have a bazillion home runs. And so there's two questions there. One is, especially when we talk about Meredith and the juice ball situation. And there was the findings that some parks seem to get more juice than other parks, and Yankees was one of those prime examples. But also, and then at that time, it was because of Aaron judge going for a bazillion home runs, which he still is, but now the Yankees have reshaped the bat, and I have so many questions. I'm guessing that next week you can do a deep dive into this, because it's weird that that is okay. And I mean, talk about

Patti 4:07
a big loophole. There's nothing illegal about the torpedo bats. They fit the dimensions. They just move the dimensions around. But they are not at all illegal. And not all the guys are using them. Aaron Judge, I don't believe, was using one. He had three Homers. Wow. So you know, the bats are unusual. The bats also, this is not the first year the bats have been around, so it just happens to be the large concentration of them. I know there'll be more stories this week, so absolutely, we'll look at that more closely. But I like the called torpedo bats. That just makes me happy. So I do want to learn more about

Pottymouth 4:36
them. That is good. Yeah. I mean, it'll be, you know, interesting to see at this point next week, how the hitting holds up for for the Yankees, or hopefully not, as the case might be, because right now, holy, I mean, they had 2020 runs in one game, and 12 today, and then there's two more games that I'm not mentioning, so that, like somebody's got to be punching some fun. Members up there, you guys are probably cool shit,

Patti 5:01
and several teams have had a lot of runs. Have had like guys have had multi Homer games. So it's theirs. Was the most extreme, but it wasn't the only one where there were an unusual number of homers in one game. So more about that next week, when we have time to take

Pottymouth 5:16
a look at that to be continued

Patti 5:21
on today's show, our 400th episode, we are so excited to welcome Kat D Williams, friend of the show. Cat is Professor Emeritus at Marshall University, the CEO of the International Women's baseball center, and among other things, she's the author of Isabel left Alvarez, the improbable life of a Cuban American baseball star. And we talked with Kat about that book way back in episode 144 that seems like forever ago. Wow. And today we get to hear all about her newly released book all the way the life of baseball Trailblazer may be Blair cat, welcome and thank you for joining us again. Oh,

Kat Williams 5:53
thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to see you guys again. Great to see you. So do I have to write another book

Patti 6:03
that's a spoiler. That's my last question for you.

Pottymouth 6:07
However, come back to that, I think we'll be able to find some other occasions for chatting. Okay, good, sure.

Patti 6:13
So we usually open interviews with questions about how baseball first became part of your life, but we asked you that you know episodes and episodes ago. So instead, I'm going to ask you, how did you observe opening day? I mean, it was just last Thursday. Did you go to a game? Did you watch a thing? Did you ignore it completely? No,

Kat Williams 6:30
I didn't. I did not go to a game. I don't. I'm a big Cincinnati Reds fan and and I, I, I live three hours away, so I was unable to go to opening day, but I watched with my dad on the phone Louis, Louisville. And yeah, he's, he's, he's the one who taught me to love the game, and also a big reds fan. He's 90, and his goal is to live long enough to see the Reds go back to the to the playoffs. I hope he does. But we watched the game and talked on the phone and ended with same old red, same old reds, so, but yeah, opening day, man, there's nothing like it for sure.

Pottymouth 7:17
I've got to say just that. Last year I got to go with Patty to the red stadium. Was my first time there. Patty had been there before, but it was so much fun. We had a blast. Gorgeous Cincinnati overall. Was a lot of fun. And the whole area around the ballpark was, was great fun. It's great. I would love to, I think they'll do this year. I

Patti 7:37
want you I got, I hope so. I got a little I got a little hell thrown at me at the concession stand at the ballpark in Cincinnati, because I was, I might have been wearing O's gear, but I said, was I'm excited to be here because I have three favorite short styles. And I said, Gunner Henderson, you know, I'm wearing my oh shirt. And also Ali de la Cruz, right? And Bobby Witten and the Royals were in town, and he's like, I don't believe you. And I'm like, Ellie de la Cruz, Bobby wit guys, all right, fine. Here's your mirror, yeah, but he made me prove my cred. He did.

Kat Williams 8:10
Yeah, hey, hey, I don't blame you. You know those reds fans, man, we've, we've, we've had a long, tough road here for a while. So, you know, we can get a little surly,

Pottymouth 8:19
but now you've got Terry, and we both have, like, all the warm, fuzzy feelings for Mr.

Kat Williams 8:23
You know what? I was really glad they hired him. But you know what, I don't care who they hire. Let's just get the job. Get to work. Yeah,

Pottymouth 8:33
all right, and so we should probably get back to the women, which, yes, luckily, you know, not, maybe not luckily, through a lot of hard work by you and a lot of other people, there's going to be more and more to talk about with women's baseball in this country. So excited for getting to that point. But the last time we talked to you was that book about lefty Alvarez, who was chosen as your subject for that book because of guidance by Maybelle Blair, right? And yeah, and I remember you saying that Maybelle led you to lefty, not because lefty was a stellar player, but because she was a character and she was impactful. And it seems like those are like the same reasons that brought you around back to Maybelle. So at what point did you decide to shift your focus to Maybelle herself, and at what point did she agree to have,

Kat Williams 9:20
yeah, that's the key, right? Well, you know, I have always thought that that Blair story was should be told, that it was worth telling. And when I say her story, I mean the whole story, her life, her her impact on baseball and and yet I was always it wasn't her, and then, in the beginning, it was me. I really didn't feel confident in my ability to do her story justice. And part of that, I mean, it was there a lot of reasons for that, not the least of which is that we've been. Friends for 20, over 20 years, and also because, you know, she is a larger than life figure. And so I just was nervous about it. And eventually I thought, yeah, no, go forward. So I asked her about it, and her initial reaction was, Are you nuts? I'm not. I'm not, I'm not a superstar. I'm not a star. I didn't do anything great. And as I mentioned in the book, yeah, you know, if what you do is look at that one year she played in the All American leagues, she wasn't a superstar, and no one's writing a book about a person who was a pitcher in 1948 for the Peoria Red Wings. And if that's all they did, but that is a tiny fraction of what she did. She has been part of baseball her whole life, and you know, sometimes it's important to talk more about this, less about the stats. Hey, baseball lovers, man, we love our stats, right? I mean, for example, I am well aware that my reds have five World Series and nine National League pennants, but I'm also aware that they're the odds of them winning the World Series are something like 60 to one, right? So the thing is, stats matter in baseball, but sometimes they are not the most important thing. And in fact, I really think when it comes to Blair and a lot of a lot of the women that I research that it's it's about those whose lives were changed by sports and who, in turn changed the lives of others who came after them. And that's the story of Maybelle Blair, and that is the story that matters.

Patti 11:56
You said you guys have been friends for 20 years, so you already know. You knew a lot of things. You knew a lot of things about Blair's, yeah, were there some areas where you really needed to do that additional research? Or could you just say, I know all of these things?

Kat Williams 12:10
Yeah? No, no. And in fact, those moments sitting just the two of us in her house in in California, you know, I had the rough outline, but those moments of digging into, wait a minute, you know, I've heard this story before, but what are the, you know, what? What's the, what are the nuts and bolts? And those moments are priceless, and I will cherish them always. I only had a couple of requirements when we went into this project. That one, she would always be honest with me, and that she wouldn't hide anything, and that she would let me as long as I agreed, which I did, that I would never publish anything that was harmful, that she would allow me to publish the story as she told it to me, and she agreed. And so, you know, a lot of her stories, you guys have heard her talk. You've probably even been around her. A lot of her stories are about the days playing, and she was all, you know, it's funny and all but, but you got to pull those apart. And that's what we did sitting in her living room, and it was just it was a gift.

Patti 13:23
Did you worry that she was going to hold some things back? Because you're right, the public impression is very much. She's all out there. What you see is what you get. But it seems like you were kind of concerned that she may be hiding or unwilling to go deep in some areas.

Kat Williams 13:41
And she, I was afraid that she would be afraid, if that makes sense. You know, she came out at age 95 and so that issue of sexuality and race in the All American girls professional baseball league has been taboo, and and she and so many of those women, were terrified. And so even at this age, she was concerned about what people might think not. I mean, you know, I, I interviewed her nephew, who is her closest relative, and he is a he is wonderful and supportive. And I said to him, so what did you think when she came out and he's like, next? No, I mean, you know, but, but the reality was, for her, that was scary. And so I was worried that that issue. I also knew that she had a love of her life named Janae, who passed away, and I didn't know if she'd go into that story. And so it's the nitty gritty of those things. But. She did. She did. God bless her, she did.

Pottymouth 15:03
So I think it's a good point. Now, for the first I think you have one book excerpt that, yeah, I do share with our listeners that's, yeah,

Kat Williams 15:13
very short. But I want to, I do want to read this. Being friends with Blair is not for the week of heart. When you first meet her, it's as if the room shifts. She brings you into her world, and life is never the same. That's how Texans are, she claimed when someone asked about her big, outgoing personality. I'm from Texas. We do everything big and bold. Yes, I reminded her later, but you aren't from Texas, Blair was unfazed. Well, my family was so I'm a Texan too. Two of us Blairs died at the Alamo. There was no arguing that. Fact, in fact, I looked it up, and the California born Maybelle Blair has continued to tell Texas sized stories over the years, and in every situation, those stories have been infused with energy, humor and baseball, what a character, just what a character. And oh, my god. Oh my god. One of the things

Pottymouth 16:13
that kind of jumped out at me is you talked about two of your pivotal moments with her, where first and I love this. When you first met her after the All American girls professional league reunion, and weren't quite sure of the relationship, and she turned to you and said, You come into the bar. And that was it. And then the second one with when you were coming together for the International Women's baseball Center planning and that you met in our living room over pizza and beer. So you know, one thing that Patty and I talk about a lot is, like, the people that we would love to meet and hang out and have a beer with, like the cut the people that we could relate to after that. So I just want to know what's it like to have a beer with Maybelle? Oh,

Kat Williams 16:55
my God. Oh my god. Well, you know, over the last 20 plus years, we've shared a number of them, and she is, she gets more outspoken, she gets she gets funnier, if you Can intimidating and i Yes, and even more, even more, oh, I don't know. Like, you know, she's opinionated. Maybe that's a maybe that's it. You know, she has lived her entire life determined that girls and women are gonna play the game of baseball and by God, we're gonna make a place for it. So you get a couple of beers at her, and she's telling the guy down the bar, you know, it's so she stays on message, that's for sure. It's more based on message, but, yeah, just more of it. But you know what she is, as has funny and and open and caring as she is, you know, she is just a genuinely good human being, and, and she is selfless and generous and, and, and so, you know, that's part of the story, right? And so that's also what some of what comes across. But yeah, hanging out having a beer with Blair is not a bad way to spend an afternoon or an evening or three. So

Pottymouth 18:27
that segues well into the next thing I wanted to ask you about her spunk in personality come through like you've been describing. But what struck me in the book is that it seems like she was born with it. There. There. You have the this evidence of her at a very young age. And I couldn't pick out one of the specific incidents, so I don't know if you could choose, like, an example from her childhood, when she was young, something that she did that really showed that that spark from the very beginning. Well,

Kat Williams 18:56
well there. And yes, I do. I think you're right. I think she was born with it, much to the dismay of her mother. But I think a couple, a couple of of examples, you know, she wanted to be part of baseball. Her brother was quite a good baseball player, and her brother and her father and Maybell, when she was, like, four years old, were across the street from where they lived, you know, digging up an old field and making a baseball field out of this abandoned field, and she wanted to be part of it. So her brother said, okay, he got an old tractor and an old gate to drag the field, and so he placed her but on the gate as a weight, and dragged her around the field. And she laughed. She said, I have never been so dirty in my whole life. She said he would turn that thing around as we go around the diamond, and I'd almost fall off, and he's yelling at me sit still. And so. So there was this, there was this, like immediate connection, quite literally, to the dirt of the of the field. But then, if you fast forward even a few years, she was in the fifth grade, and her brother was in school just a year or two ahead, and he was playing baseball, and the boys would go off and play in other schools. So maybe I went to her fifth grade teacher and said, Wait a minute, we should have a team. And she said, Okay, put together a little team. No, no, they had to have a team that went off and played at other schools. Now this is in the early 40s, right? No, I'm sorry, early, early to mid 30s, and so she was not taking no for an answer. And that's exactly what happened when she was in the fifth grade. She created a team, and she'll tell you today, I practice them hard, and they went off. They went off, drove to other schools and played other teams and, and that's an example of that spunk, you know. And again, it's the same kind of determination that has gotten her to age 98 and has gotten her to the point where, you know, she she keeps telling me every single day while I'm on this side of the grass Williams, we got to get this done. And of course, you know, that is my living, breathing goal in life,

Patti 21:35
right? So I'm, you know, we decided we're going to interview you. We're very excited. This is coming up in the future, and I'm waiting for the book to come because I want to because I want to read this book. And I'm thinking about, what do I know about Mabel? And what I didn't know, and it was really starting to concern me was like, what did she have a job? Like, what did you do for livings all I know about her was like, you know that? You know the the league, the baseball league, and then all the stuff that's happening now, and nothing is like, how did she pay the so I was, like, thrilled that you got to go into that part of the story. And I was so, you know, she's got this career at Northrop, and sometimes it seemed like she was really proud of that work, because she was making a difference. And sometimes it seemed like that's how I paid the bill. So I could have a good time. I had a lot of social life. I wanted to play. You know, we had the softball team. I was going out to the bars, and I needed to pay for that, right? What do you think was it was the role of this, like, career? Was it like both of those things was one more than the other? Like, how did that fit? And what did that do to make her how she is now?

Kat Williams 22:33
Well, I think she was extremely proud of her job at Northrop. She worked her way up. This is that story that we've all heard Right Start in the mail room. You know, from a messenger to a person who is a chauffeur and is driving around people like Ronald Reagan, but she she was, quite literally, that person that worked her way up and loved working for Northrop, loved Mr. Northrup, loved her role in that company, and eventually became one of the first female directors of a department at Northrop aircraft. And she is very proud of that. In fact, she was responsible for planning the the trip to bring the airplanes through where they were being constructed at Northrop aircraft to to the Air Force Base. And so back then they sometimes took the wings off, sometimes they didn't, but they pulled them through the streets, wow. And she, I mean, she was responsible for that, so she's very proud of it, but it was a good job. And it was it. It was a time when women didn't have those opportunities. And, yeah, she created baseball teams. She created softball teams and continued to play softball herself outside of work, but it was never just a job for her. So

Pottymouth 24:12
you mentioned her partner, Janae. Janae, am I saying that? Right? Janae. Janae, that was, you know, definitely new news to me, it was the most beautiful and sad at the same point part of the book. I really loved that section, and especially, you know, the the recent news, when we all heard when she came out at age 95 and I wondered, well, what did that look like during her life? So I'm wondering, you know, first of all, did you know about the relationship before you asked her about the book. And then, how did they present themselves, sort of to this, the people that they knew, their family, their friends, because they were living together, right, right,

Kat Williams 24:53
right. I did know about Janae. I had been told, but not the full story, you know? Oh. You know, the little bits and pieces throughout the years. So I did know, but I didn't quite, I didn't quite understand the significance. It was hard for her to tell the story. I don't think she has talked about it very much, but she insists that had Janae not died, they would still be together, that that was the love of her life. Now, that's my language love of her life. But that is, I think, the way she would define it as well. You know, that was the 50s, 60s, 70, early 70s, people of that generation that had roommates. You know, it was a life lived in secret. It was a life now her nephew, Rod, who I interviewed for the book, remember Janae, and remember when she died, and they loved Janae, Janae and and Maybell would have them over at Christmas. And but again, there's no real discussion of that, right? And certainly not in that time period. And they were not alone in that, that that is an age old story, right? This is my roommate. This is my friend. This is and so she would never Well, first of all, she would have lost her job and and likely been arrested. So, you know, it was, yeah, it was a different time. Sadly, I think you know, some things, the more they change, the more they stay the same. But she, she lived a very happy life with Janae. They ran a beauty salon together and and they had a home, and, you know, they partied and they had a great time. And this was just a horrible, horrible sudden loss in in maybelles life.

Patti 26:58
So Maybell is so visible when I think about, I think, when the average person thinks about women in baseball, her picture is the one they think that comes to their mind, right? And so I was surprised. I did not know she only played for one season, you know, in the ag ppl, right? One season, you know. And because she's so tied to the movie and all of the the baseball for all stuff, it seems like she's had this long career. And I was really, I was actually surprised at the amount of softball in the book, all the softball teams she played on, like the professional ones, the traveling teams, the baseball and softball teams that she started, and all of that. Right? How did she get from there to, like, this icon for women in baseball? I mean, is it just tenacity, or because a big personality, I mean, because she's it, even though that experience was kind of short and a long time ago, the actual professional baseball piece,

Kat Williams 27:49
no, the professional baseball piece, and that's the thing that's important about this. She only played one year with the All American girls professional baseball league. And while we all love the league, we all love the movie. You know, if we drew this timeline of the history of girls and women in baseball, the AAG PBL, would be a tiny little tick on that timeline. So I'm not diminishing that, but, but the reality is, yeah, she only played one year with that leak, a huge number of those women in that league came from professional softball, and many of them went back to professional softball. And so the league started as a softball league. It was not a baseball league initially. So in the time period, that was the way that was it, that was the way it had to be. Now. The other piece is that Maybell Her story is not unlike millions of other stories of girls and women in throughout the 20th century, in that they played baseball on the street or on a makeshift diamond with their brothers, with the boys down the in the neighborhood, or whatever it was, there simply were not opportunities for girls and women to play the game in that way. So her story is not unique. And so there's that piece. The other thing is that she, you know, fast forward a lot of years, and she became, she was a minimal advisor for the movie, illegal, her own, the 1992 movie, but was a hugely important in advisor for the Amazon series, A League of Their Own. And so some of it is her tenacity, some of it is her absolute belief that we need to protect the history and the legacy of girls and women in all aspects of baseball internationally. In 2014 we had many of us who helped. Create the iwbc. Were involved in the the AAG PBL Players Association, and we've been pushing we need to we need a location, we need a home. We need to whatever. And that is not their mission. Their mission is to preserve their history. And so Okay, so we sat down, as you mentioned, over pizza and beer, and we said, well, no one's going to do it for us, so we're going to do it that. That is why she is where she is now, because that piece has always been there. It's just different opportunities. And what she did was surround herself with like minded people, right? People who were either, as you know, determined or stubborn or whatever, and so ultimately, she created that place for herself, but it wasn't intentional, in that she wasn't trying to create herself as a star. She was simply trying to create an opportunity for girls and women to play the game, um, part of the game. Coach the game, whatever they want to do. And, you know, let's face it, she walks into a room with this big gray hair and those dark sunglasses and painted fingernails, and people are like, whoa. Who was that? And so all of that plays a role in it. Yeah,

Pottymouth 31:23
so sort of thinking on those lines you do go into the tours that she and Shirley did and talk about another bittersweet, important relationship of her life, and in all of your lives, the loss of certain Shirley berkovich, not, not too long ago, so they did the first pitches tour. And you mentioned that they did maybe more than Nolan Ryan, that they were out there so much. So I just wanted to ask a little bit about that duo going out there and doing the promo. One thing that really struck me, too, when you talk about that big relation, the personality of Maybelle and how Shirley was, I thought you were gonna say

Patti 32:00
big hair, this hand lotion, that big hair.

Pottymouth 32:05
And then that Shirley was like the quiet part of that, and that that related to different types of girls, like some girls are the quiet type, and they needed a Shirley. And then the world needed a Maybell to be out there talking about it. So just any memorable incidents from that you know, Shirley, Mabel duo out there doing first pitches. And my biggest part of the question to address is, how does she still have an arm? She's still throwing right? I know she

Kat Williams 32:34
is. Let me just say tomorrow is the third anniversary of Shirley's death, and aside from my own mother, it is one of the greatest losses of my life. So sorry, Shirley. Shirley was and remains one of the single best human beings I've ever known in my life. She is the best. Was the best of all of us, the most honest, the most caring and and sometimes that came across as maybe being a pushover, or, you know, Blair was the outgoing one, and surely, just, you know me, can mild and went along. And let me tell you, nothing could be further from the truth. If Shirley berkovich decided on something, by God, you were not changing her mind. She loved, she loved Maybell and Maybell loved her, and I think Maybell would I want to put words in her mouth, but I think she would admit that that, too was one of the greatest losses of her life. As an as an aside, Maybelle and I were actually in Rockford, Illinois, at the home of the peaches when we got the word that Shirley had passed away. Yeah, wow. So that that duo, they were two of the funniest, most sincere, hard working women I have ever known in my life, and how they ended up being. I mean, it is a Laurel and Hardy. It is a it is a God, I don't know, just mule and nag. It's, you know, it's, it's all of that. It's Thelma and Louise. It's, you know, they are, they were as different as they could possibly be, but they were unified in one thing, and that was that girls and women should have the opportunity to have what they had. And so they were willing to travel the country. And by. God, they did. They were up and down the West Coast, and they traveled around the country, and they threw out first pitches, and they, you know, they met Kamala Harris, who would ultimately be the Vice President of the United States. They were, you know, they were everywhere, talking about the importance of this issue. And I don't even know how many first pitches, Maybell has has thrown a lot, but she still does it at 98 she's still got an arm, and, you know, she's a little more unstable on her feet, but, but she still has an arm. And if somebody calls up and says, Maybelle, we want you, she's getting on a plane and she's going to be there. And in fact, I was with her last week in Rockford for the initial launch of this book. So yeah, the two of them, man, I don't know it's a there are some. There are some interviews with them on YouTube that I swear to God, are hysterical, and they are being perfectly serious. That's the other thing. There's no humor. There's no attempt at humor here. But they are both just, you know, they are trailblazers, for sure,

Patti 36:19
man, potty mouth. These are some life goals for us. I think in 30 years, I want people to talk about us even half as good as I almost. We have so much work to do.

Kat Williams 36:32
Hey, we all do a

Pottymouth 36:34
little patty and potty mouth when you're talking about, like, the different duos there. I was like, here we go. Here's another one. And and I did, yeah, right, there you go. Did have the absolute privilege of seeing them both in a couple panels at a couple of the all star games and the sessions and women in baseball, and just sharp, sharp, they could handle anything coming at them. Oh,

Kat Williams 36:54
and maybe she's still there. No, no one should ever think, Oh, she's 98 year old woman, and therefore we can pull the wool over her eyes or whatever. Ain't gonna happen. No. So,

Patti 37:08
okay, so you've already alluded to it, and you shared the story in the book of Blair. You know, famously outing herself at the Tribeca Film Festival at 95 years old. And I like that. You tie that, or maybe she tied that to the same like, if you can see it, you can be it. It's not just i You can be a baseball player, but you can be proud and out and on all of these things. Do you think she was ever tempted to go public before? And it was, was it really a What the hell here comes moment? Or it just like sort of happened?

Kat Williams 37:36
Well, I don't, I don't think she was tempted before. I think it was too hard, and I credit Will Graham and Abby Jacobson, of course, Will Graham was one of the directors and creators of the Amazon show A League of Their Own. Abby Jacobson another one of the creators and also star. They were very out, as were other members of the cast and crew, and they called Maybelle up a few years before it came out the show, and said, Look, we want to do this show. We want, we'd like for you to come to LA and talk to us. And she just lives an hour or so from LA. Come and talk to us. Tell us stories. But we want to talk about things other than just what happened on the ball field and and maybe I was a little nervous, she said at first, when I went, you know, they were talking very openly, because they are, of course, a generation that uses the word queer, for example, as opposed to gay or and So it made her a little uncomfortable. And she wasn't uncomfortable with them. It was just uncomfortable language. But the more she got to know them, and she still just adores all of them. They are very close. They are very dear friends. And in fact, Abby and will both wrote a little blurb on the back of the book. So I was, I was very pleased about that, but they, Blair was encouraged by them. They and by that, I don't mean they specifically said you need to do this, or you should do this, but she saw how they were, and she saw how comfortable they were. And then time went on, and she worked more with the with the with the show and other people would, you know, they were just so free and open. And I so, I think, as she was moving toward the Tribeca thing, it wasn't like, okay, when we get to Tribeca, I'm going to come out. I don't think it was that at all, but I do think it was on her mind, and so sitting up on that stage, and they were talking very openly about themselves and about their experiences, and she just. She said, and this is the way she described it to me, cat. They handed me that microphone, and I opened my mouth, and it just came out. And she said, Then I thought everybody started standing up, and they were clapping, and will was crying, and ever and she said, I thought, Oh, my God, what have I done? But she I do think, in a sense, it was for the moment, but it wasn't like it hadn't been something she was thinking about. She was terrified. She called me the next day. I wasn't there, of course. She called me the next day. She said, I don't know what my family's gonna be. And I'm thinking, oh my god, Blair, really,

Patti 40:39
but, but that's

Kat Williams 40:41
her reality, right? And so, of course, Rod and and his wife, Marlene, and their sons and their they love her, right? They, they love her. And they, of course, they've always known so, um, so that's a kind of a long winded answer to your question, but the reality was, I think this was a it was, it was gonna happen at some point, but she needed the opportunity. You know, unless that TV show was out there, she wouldn't have had an opportunity to do it, and she wasn't gonna make the opportunity. Maybe that's it. Well, and

Pottymouth 41:21
I'm sure talking to them in the process of advising on the TV show, just brought up all this memory and matter, talking about it, and just, you know, going back to the TV show for a minute. I, you know, saw it when it came out, and loved it. And then it really struck me while I was reading your book at how much came from Maybelle, like it was so clear, like, you know, the scene in the bar, with when the raid happened, and just so many details I felt like I could understand better after reading the book. So that was really cool to see. And I want to go down on official record that I am crushed that they didn't do season two. And you mentioned that a little bit in the book. But do you have you and or Maybelle, have a specific sort of take on how that decision not to do Season Two came around,

Kat Williams 42:09
you know, I don't. I was certainly not privy to those conversations. Had Amazon Prime called me, I would have suggested they do it. But, you know, budgets, you know, I mean all this stuff. I have no inside knowledge. I am only offering an opinion, which I am always happy to do. And I, I think it was a subject matter and and maybe budget was part of it. I really don't know, but I do think it made a lot of people uncomfortable. I mean, let's face it, it's hard. You know that movie 1992 Penny Marshall could never have even touched those issues and and yet, you know, Abby and will and some of the others talked to Penny before she passed away, and she gave her blessing for them to do this. And so, you know, I think that may have been part of it, but truly, I don't base that on anything other than opinion. I was, I was crushed, and so was Maybelle. I, you know, I got to tell you, you alluded to the episode with the bar raid. I have to tell you that was one of the best hours of television I've ever seen in my life. It it was and having known the story, for your listeners who haven't seen it, you need to see it. It was breathtaking and not all that far away from, you know, our reality. No

Pottymouth 43:54
absolutely eye opening. And like you said, like that's, you know, today, things are coming back, and we need to see stuff like that, because that's the whole purpose of preserving the history is, so that we act more appropriately in today's world, which

Kat Williams 44:09
it's tough. What a nice thing that would be, right

Pottymouth 44:12
would be, for

Patti 44:14
sure. And I do feel like, you know, I absolutely live in a bubble in our little, little like hippie community here in Takoma Park, and how our kids grew up, and who they know, and what our community is like, and everybody I know who watched that series was all couldn't say a bad thing about it, and very excited about it. And here's why I love it more than the movie. We know the movie was important, but this told a fuller story. And then, and I'm like, right? How could it get canceled? Okay, I talked to people in my bubble, and those are the people I agree with who agree with me, and they're all the other people. And now I know who those people are. Given a different climate, but yeah, it was,

Kat Williams 44:52
yeah, right, yeah. Well, and you know, it got great ratings, really high rut. Who knows? I mean, it should. Just and, and they were, you know, it was a clear, oh, my God, we, you know, do we need to have one more story about a bunch of lesbians playing but, you know, like, Okay, you're not watching the show. I mean, you're making a political statement before you really know what you're talking about. But, but that's, again, that's a political thing, and I, and I, I understand it to a degree, but that TV show did not get what it deserved, and and that's too bad, and neither did the creators of it and the actors in it. It was, they are fantastic people, supportive, wonderful people, and and so, yeah, I would sure like to know the next scene after the end of that last episode. So absolutely.

Pottymouth 45:54
So jumping way ahead to today. So you know, thinking about things that we can improve on from the past, that we're finally getting another league of our own, right, we're getting a Women's League next year. Do you remember Maybelle finding out about that and what her reaction was when that news became official? This is happening? Well, yeah.

Kat Williams 46:18
I mean, I wasn't there when she was told, I think she kind of knew something that it was kind of happening. She is, this is, again, I think this is true. This is not necessarily fact, but she is, of course, close, close friends with Justine Siegel, and so I think she had a sense something might be happening. But then when it was announced for sure, I think we were all shocked, because I think it was, you know, it was happening sort of behind the moon, you know. And so she is an advisor for the league, as am I wonderful. And, yeah, I mean, I don't know what I'm gonna advise them on, but, you know, I was honored that they asked. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, of course, I am, I am so excited. I am so excited about the prospects. And, you know, I think everyone, all women, a new league, should come to Rockford, Illinois, right? That's, that's my goal. I am single minded, but, but that is, she is excited and, you know, but again, her message is almost always the same while I'm on this side of the grass, you know, she feels that, she feels that press right, like that's okay. We're gonna do this new league, but it's next year. Or, you know, the iwbc is, is successful in doing a, b and c, but we're not doing X, Y and Z, and I feel the press of time, you know? So she was very excited, and is very excited, as we all are, because it's been a long time coming, that's for sure.

Patti 48:09
This feels like one of the runways that you referred to, you know, in the book about, you know, Blair building fields, and then later, sort of these metaphorical runways. And it seemed like the build building fields. Part was, everybody should get a chance to play because it's fun, and you should feel like what it's like to be on a team. And if you want to play, you should get to play. And then, like, the runaway stuff seems more like building infrastructure, you know, building this pipeline to leagues and making things more formal is that just like a question of scale, like, as time went on, you know, it became not just a team at my elementary school or a team at the place where I work, but now I need to broaden this, or it was like a really dedicated focus to we've got to think about this on a big scale. I don't

Kat Williams 48:53
think that was a planned thing at all. I think when she was a kid, she was very focused. I mean, most kids are right. I mean, their world is, you know what? What are you doing for me and and so she was focused on, on making that an opportunity for herself. And then as she got older, it was about opportunities to play. I want to, I want to, yeah, I'm going to go off and play professional softball, or I'm going to go to the league, or whatever it is. But then, as you get, and this is true, I think of all of us, as you get a little bit older, and you realize you start to see injustice in a way that and and maybe even understand it, although I don't completely understand it even now, but you know, you, you start to see it and understand it a little bit. And so then you you realize, wait a minute, I can do I can do more than this. I can do more than that. I can so I think it was an evolution, right? I don't think it was this, is this, is we do this. Us in order to do that. And so you know that metaphor of the Amelia Earhart quote and digging runways it that is a that is a quote that has been important to me since I was about 11. And and so I think I see it a lot in people. I see it a lot in people like, Maybell, you know, it's, it's, oh, woe is, you know, some people, it's, oh, woe is me. I was born poor, I was born this, or I was born that, and I, you know, I didn't get to do this. And so there are a lot of reasons that people don't get opportunities. And God knows, I get that. And so Maybell is thinking as am I? All right, let's go out and help create those opportunities, right? So let's get out there and do it, not just for ourselves, as the quote says, but for everyone coming behind you. And so I just it's a, it is the way I live my life and and I think for me, Bill, it's the same. And so, yeah, it's not a, you know, there was no road map, you know, it was, here's the Okay, here's what we're doing now, all right, now, over here, we have to do this, but the quest to play the game was, was the that was the engine, you know,

Pottymouth 51:29
it's, it seems like such a big cycle, because that's, you know, how she started as a kid, and that's still what's, what's propelling now. And I love, you know, just a couple of things, when the look in the eyes of the girls at the baseball for all nationals, when they see Maybell out there with just this announcement, and that's worth it, and how much you know, love that she gives into that because she's that's what she's there for. You talk about everything ties back to toward the future and then going back to, like, where it came from when she was a kid. You talked about how during the great depression for her, baseball was, quote, an escape in a haven, right? So this idea of baseball being something bigger than just the sport, it represents a lot more. And that's, you know, a core part of why we do this podcast is we're not just talking about baseball, we're talking about everything that connects to baseball, about women's rights and labor rights and international issues and all those things that come together. So what sort of escape in a haven? Issues do you see that that parallel today, as you know, like when, when Mabel was young and needed that escape in a haven?

Kat Williams 52:36
I'm not sure how to answer that. I mean, I think, oh, you know sports. I mean, we're talking about baseball, but it could be just about any sport. I think it could be dance or music or poetry. I mean, you know, a kid and and I'll just, I'll just stick with, with baseball, a girl who is a good athlete. And these things are true today, maybe to a lesser extent, but they were certainly true 40, 5060, years ago, a girl who was a good athlete in school didn't fit, didn't didn't follow the same rules, didn't like the same things as the other girls, and maybe really kind of like the other girls, you know, those are, those are difficult things to overcome today, and they were nearly impossible in in the, you know, early to mid 20th century. And so being for that girl, if she's a good athlete, and she finds solace, and she finds a place where she's accepted on a baseball diamond, then it's like air, right? You it's not just I want to, I want to go play baseball. It's not just, you know, here's my, here's my here's what I do in my free time, and here's my batting average. It's it is like air. And I think that's true for those girls today. I mean, there are a lot of young women that I encounter, girls and young women today who I tell my own story, or I talk about those issues, and you can see the light bulbs go off, right? It's like, oh, oh, I'm not the only one, you know, even today, and I do know I'm repeating myself, but it's important to say even today, we are dealing with those kinds of issues. And so I think, you know, the the same, the same issues are there, and baseball is the same kind of safe haven for those girls. They're not going to be professional ball players. Course, you know. And us, those of us who founded and work with the international women's baseball center, we know we're not about making professional baseball players, you know. So all of that is wrapped up in the same message. And so I'm not sure there's a whole lot of difference. I'm not sure if that answered your question. But that's, that's kind of, that's kind of how it feels to me at this Yeah,

Pottymouth 55:25
I think you're right. I just want to add in that we've had the privilege of interviewing a few girls from DC girls baseball, and just what the experience has done to these young women and their level of eloquence, really, and confidence and plans moving forward. I think you're, you know, you're exactly right. It's and and their struggles. I mean, they these. They're all pioneers. They're all little pioneers forging that trail for the other kids who are coming behind them. And, and, yeah, they

Kat Williams 55:55
absolutely are. Yeah, yeah.

Patti 55:57
I very much like part of, part of your conclusion of the book, whereas Maybell is talking about, you know, advice for life and how it's very much like playing baseball. And I would love it if you would share that piece with us. I almost burst into saying,

Kat Williams 56:13
Yeah,

Patti 56:15
well, thank you. I think you know it is good. Yeah. When

Kat Williams 56:21
I finished writing this book, I looked back again at Maybelle Blair's life, not just the narrative of her life, the triumphs and the tragedies, and not just the baseball but the full arc of it. I laughed for the millionth time at some of her antics. Felt sad when she lost the love of her life, and was proud when she blew the door off the closet at Tribeca her life as a whole, and those events individually inform us about a time period and inspire us never to give up on a dream. But what did it all mean to Maybell? What did she want us to take away from her story? I asked her that. Asked her what she wanted us, her friends, fans and family, and the young girls who are fighting to play baseball, to learn from her life. Well, she said, as she put her hand on her chin as if to think of something to say. Now that's not a quick answer. Sit down. This may take a while. It did, but her insights were well worth the time. First Blair listed the things we all say when we are talking to someone who is younger than we are. Be yourself. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do something enjoy each day they go by so fast. While she continued talking often in a circular fashion, I began to see the threads unravel, as she often did, Maybell relied on baseball to explain herself. What follows is my interpretation of her answer to the question, what is your charge to us? Baseball is like life. You start at home and you end up back at home right where you started. It's not just an uninterrupted jog around the bases, though, unless you hit a home run, most of us can't do that. Remember to touch all the bases on your journey. When you need to run fast, not from things, but to them. Second base, third base, home. When you get winded or an opposing player is about to tag, you stop your progress. Wait, stay on your base, but always be alert. Never stop looking for a chance to go again when the next player hits the ball and the moment comes for you to move on. Don't hesitate. Do it. You might be thrown out or you might score in the long run, it doesn't matter which. When the play is over, you'll be home no matter what, whether you score to run or not, celebrate as you head to your dugout, you were in the game.

Pottymouth 58:48
I love that. I love that it doesn't you know in the long run that, yep, Oh, that's beautiful. You're welcome.

Patti 58:55
What's next for the iwbc,

Kat Williams 58:58
Oh, wow. We are. We are growing by leaps and bounds. I spend my life fundraising, it seems. But we have exciting things going on. We have put in a bid to host the women's baseball World Cup in 26 and 27 in Rockford. We don't know yet about that bid, and we are renovating buyer stadium where the peaches played, of course, it is one of the few remaining fields where teams played of the All American girls professional baseball league. We are, you know, we do a lot of programming in the summers where we're going to be doing a Labor Day weekend girls tournament at buyer. There's a lot go to iwbc.org, and there's a long list of events and things that we're that we're up to. Can't

Patti 59:54
wait, can't wait. So you made a joke about this at the beginning, but we're going to start off asking, have you. Picked out a subject for your next book, and can you tell us about it? I can

Kat Williams 1:00:04
tell you that I have recently signed a contract also with Roman and Littlefield to do a book about Edith Houghton. And if you don't know Edith Houghton, she played for the Philadelphia Bobby's in 1925 she was part of the Philadelphia Bobby's team that went to Japan, and she ended up a whole life in baseball, and she was the first female scout for the Philadelphia Phillies. She is the epitome. She is the epitome of what we've talked about with Maybelle in that, you know, her whole life was dedicated to and informed by baseball, and her story is also pretty remarkable.

Patti 1:00:51
Can't wait. Oh, I can't wait. You know, we're gonna invite you back for that, but I do hope we get to see you much sooner. We waited way too long in between these two.

Kat Williams 1:00:59
Yes, I hope so too. I hope so too. I'm very excited to do the book. It's been a project that I've wanted to do for a long time. There's not one. There is a children's book about Edith, but, but otherwise there's, there's not much done about her. So I think it's an important piece of women's baseball history that needs to be in a book. Exciting,

Pottymouth 1:01:22
exciting. Thank you so much. Before we let you go, could you let our listeners go? How to get the book and how to get in touch with you? Sure

Kat Williams 1:01:32
you can. You can get the book all the way on Amazon. Of course, try your local independent bookstore, if possible. You can also go to Roman and Littlefield website and order it directly from them. And you can get in touch with me. I am both. I am on social media under tell a girl, she can but you can also contact me through the International Women's baseball Center website@iwbc.org, I would, I would love to talk to anybody who wants to listen about this book and about Maybell and about the importance of women's baseball history.

Patti 1:02:19
Thank you for all you do to keep all of that up front and center. We really appreciate you. Oh,

Kat Williams 1:02:25
thank you. I appreciate that, and I appreciate the invitation back.

Pottymouth 1:02:29
Thanks so much. We'll talk to you soon. All right, thank you.

Patti 1:02:35
What a great way to celebrate our 400th episode.

Pottymouth 1:02:36
It was just Kismet. You know, the stars aligned and we had the opportunity, and I feel like just everything is kind of coming together. And what a like, positive way for us to be going into this new baseball season. So that was so much fun, so much fun. And speaking of so much fun and milestones, and us reaching 400 400 episodes, our very good friend out there and podcast supporter, Brian. Hey, Brian, thank you so much. Sent us the coolest care package in honor of our 400th episode, including personalized baseball cards that I'm sure someday will make it into some Hall of Fame somewhere, but they're just so well done. And very, very much touch my heart. So keep us going for another 400 or so.

Patti 1:03:24
And that is not why Brian is currently in the lead in our fantasy league. That also happens to be the case. I just want to point out that of our 12 teams, three of them in the top five are brand new teams this year, new managers, new participants in teams. So the top five are number one, Bono's boyfriends, number two, pandemonium. Number three, wicked, awesome team. Number four, leftist field. And number five, the rant. So congratulations to the new teams in the top five and to our other new teams and to our returning managers. We love to have you in our crazy, wacky fantasy league. And oh my gosh, so

Pottymouth 1:04:00
much appreciation for the creativity in the team names, too. I think I'm never going to be looking at left field in the same way I like leftist field. That's a much, much needed improvement there. So tomorrow

Patti 1:04:12
we're sitting in leftist field at Orioles park at Camp hard. That is because it's the home opener for the Orioles, and they're playing that other team that somebody, oh

Pottymouth 1:04:22
my gosh, so we're, yeah, the reason why I was super enthused about this opening day at Oriole Park at Camden Yards, which I love, at any rate, but I might not have been as excited about shelling out for opening day had not it been. Yeah, I'm getting all poetic here the Boston Red Sox are visiting, and as painful as it might end up being for me, while watching it is my team. I got to stick by it, and we have to get back to our traditional, you know, Red Sox Orioles banter at the yard, and that's so cool that we're actually sitting in leftist field. So that's that's going to be super meaningful tomorrow.

Patti 1:04:57
That's right, and we will, of course, probably. Fire up at our favorite local brewery within, you know, a stone's throw of Camden Yards, and then have a great day at the ballpark, and we hope again, let me say that you had a great opening weekend, that maybe you got to a ballpark or saw something on a screen that made you happy, and welcome back Major League Baseball. If you had a good story from opening day, please share it with us on social media. Sure they find us.

Pottymouth 1:05:24
You can find us on that blue sky, or, if you must, on x at ncib podcast, Facebook and Instagram are no crying and bee ball. You can email us directly and cut through all that social media bullshit at n, C, i, b, podcast@gmail.com, or join our fun group at Patreon, P, A, T, R, E, O n.com/no, crying and B ball and for just $1 or so a month. Or if you want to give more, that's also fine with us. You can be in on once in a while some extra bonuses, like what we did today. Despite cat Williams giving us so much of her time for the amazing interview, she also did a little bit more of reading an excerpt from her book that we have on Patreon. So join us, and you too can get the bonus stuff.

Patti 1:06:10
Please get boosted. Please fight the man. It's the right thing to do. Please send your game balls to Meredith, because are the balls juiced? I don't know, but until next week, say, Good night potty mouth. Good night. Potty mouth.

Tech support is very important for doing things like bringing us beer when we run out while we're recording, fixing the microphone when things go away. And I totally get that, and having dinner ready for us when we're done recording only today, we're recording in other places, so I don't get that.